Category: Animal House
Hello, So far I have applied to two different Guide Dog schools: Pilot Dogs and
The Seeing Eye. It is my first dog. I would love feedback from anyone who
has had experience with these schools. I am also open to suggestions for
other schools. Thanks for your help.
Oh, well that's easy. Pilot dogs is awful, don't go there. Guide dogs is the
best, due to there low student to instructor ratio, their facilities, the quality of
their dogs, and the length of the class.
Thanks for this. Do you mean The Seeing Eye or another organization that is
the best? Why is Pilot Dogs bad out of curiosity?
They have very lax training policies.
I mean guide dogs for the blind, the one in california. Its more close knit than
its closest rival, and has classes that are half as long while being better for the
students. You get one instructor for two students, so you spend a lot more time
one on one with the instructor. I've gone to schools with big classes and schools
with little classes, the little ones are better.
I have not attended either school you have applied to, so take this for what it is worth...
But I have not been impressed with the more lax admissions process I have seen from Pilot dogs. Their training appears to be not as comprehensive, and IMHO they have given dogs to people who are unable to take care of them independently.
I have met and observed great guide dog teams from GDB and Seeing Eye, and many of the other major guide dog schools. What is it that you like about Seeing Eye and Pilot in particular? The more information you have going in, the more informed a choice of school you can make.
You also probably want to browse the boards as guide dog schools pros/cons have been discussed quite a bit over the years.
When I did my research, I felt GEB was the best school for the things i was looking for, but Seeing Eye and GDB were also up there as far as reputable/quality.
Remember everyone has their opinions, some good some bad, take some time and talk to the ones you are interested in ask questions, etc.
I don't think Pilot is a good choice for first time guide dog handlers. It's a school you should attend if you already know how to read, communicate with, and troubleshoot behavioral issues with a guide dog. Also, I don't believe they offer follow-up unless you live in Ohio, or relatively close to the school.
Guide Dogs for the Blind loses points with me because of their two-week training period. I don't think this is a good idea for first time dog handlers in a residential program. I've spoken to recent GDB grads who are first time handlers, and they don't learn things you would expect every guide dog handler to know. Also, GDB trains their dogs for 3 months, which is another no-no in my book, especially since most of those dogs are adolescents. I understand large schools have financial decisions to make, but when you're matching guide dogs with people, please give people fully trained dogs who are reliable in temperament, behavior, and understanding. Adolescent dogs generally don't match that description.
I applaud the school for being ahead of the rest of the programs with positive reinforcement training. They teach their students the versatility of the clicker, proper terminology and positive reinforcement methodology, and different reward methods besides food.
Seeing Eye seems to be a good school for most that attend. I personally would steer clear of that place because of their harsh training methods, and because they too are putting out incredibly young dogs. But that's my preference. Many people are attracted to the Seeing Eye's ownership policy, which grants you full ownership of your dog upon graduation.
Really, how good a guide dog school is depends on what you want out of a program.
One of the reasons I chose the program I went to is because they only put out adult dogs. Every dog leaving that school is 2 years old, or is about to turn two within the next month. This was important to me because I was a first time dog handler period; I never even owned a pet dog. It was important to me to have an adult with consistent behavior, solid understanding, and reliable judgment.
I also wanted veterinary assistance at the time, and was won over by the idea of getting a dog that was trained in New York. As someone who loves and lives in a large city, it was attractive to me to have a dog that was trained in and would work well in the fast-paced, loud, go-go-go city environment.
Here's a checklist for things you may or may not consider important when selecting a guide dog school:
How long do students spend training at the school?
What is the student to instructor ratio?
Where is the school located?
Are there follow-up services to your home area?
Is in-home training offered?
What is the school's ownership policy?
How long do the dogs spend in formal guide training?
What training methods are used on the dogs?
How old are the dogs when they are given to students?
What breeds are offered?
Is assistance with veterinary costs offered?
Can you return to the school for brush-up training if necessary?
Do you have a choice in contact with your dog's puppy-raisers?
Is there a graduation ceremony?
Every school will have it's potential problems. Make a list of important, and do your own research from there. Some school will be ready to accept any client to boost up their numbers, some will be more in to the quality of training, rather than the quantity of training. Some will be on campus training, some might have both on-campus and home training. It is what it is suitable for you and your lifestyle. Since it is your first dog, I'll probably go for bigger school like Guidedogs for the blind, Guiding Eyes, and seeing eyes.
Good morning. I would caution the belief that older dogs are more settled. Age may be a factor but most of the time it's just in the personality. I had a 1 year old, yes, she was privately trained and amazingly calm and quiet. My 2 year old lab golden cross was a nut that almost got me killed running in to a tree and turned out to be an incredible dog once I got him home. It's something to communicate with your instructor and it's important to keep ongoing communication going through the entire process. If there are issues that you are concerned with talk to your instructor and ask if you could also talk with the trainer of the dog if your instructor didn't train him or her. Sometimes getting insite from the trainer can be helpful. I now have a yellow lab who started at 20 months and yes was a complete nut but has morfed in to a lovable productive member of society. Also, another thing that needs to be overcome is the dogs atattachment to the instructor. The one that got me slammed in to a tree I tried to give back. My instructor was so sure of this dog and the match he refused to switch the dog and I had to complete the program with this sligh devil. Well, once I got him home his attitude totally changed because I was all he had and he turned in to one of my best and smartest guides. All this to say is be sure to let your instructor know exactly what you need. not necessarily a particular breed but more the charactoristics: light or heavy pull, fast, moderate or slow, alert and always curious needing to know what's going on or a bit more settled and quiet. It's much more important to share that information with your instructor. In 6 dogs I only had one match that didnt' work well. Not bad. I went to Seeing Eye and have liked the school due to the ownership policy and also the training environment. They can come up with just about any situation you might get in to. So, That's my story and I'm sticken to it!! Good luck and be patient with your new friend. remembering that the dog is trying to learn about you just as you are learning about the dog. It really does take a good year or year and a half to solidify the working relationship. . Sometimes the first dog is the hardest because you don't know what to expect. It will be an incredible experience.
As said earlier, there are tons of opinions and reviews of the various guide dog schools. Go have a search through the boards.
That said, here's a quick rundown of some points on the Seeing Eye. I was there in summer 2013 for my first guide dog.
I got a female black lab.
I was dismayed and a little annoyed to find out she was 19 months old when I got her. Very young behavior.
Three and a half week training period for newbies was a nice length for me as a firsty; they shorten it for returns.
You pay $150 to get the dog. They allege never to turn away students who can't pay.
Happy I got a gentle instructor who made me feel comfortable and confident. There is one in particular I am thinking of who would have terrified me. Just personality differences.
Decent food.
They are supposed to have built an on-site escalator for training and also to have an off-leash fenced in dog run area on campus.
You have to harness the dogs every time you take them out to pee. Harness to go outside, unharness to pee, harness to go back in. I thought that was the stupidest, most irritating thing ever.
My dog was on Prednisone eyedrops. Nobody told me that would make her have to pee more. She was having accidents inside and I didn't know why until a week and a half in. I was pretty pissed nobody bothered to tell me I should be taking her out more.
Mini fridges in the rooms, and they do grocery runs for students for the first half of the training or so. You pay up your tab at the end.
You can't have microwave popcorn. I'm not shitting you. I wanted some, and my instructor told me that another instructor burned it and had the fire department called or something, so no popcorn unless it's premade.
It was one instructor to four students. I have common sense, so I wasn't left dangling in the wind, but I felt like the group was too large for me to feel entirely comfortable and ready to leave. I asked my instructor to teach me how to teach my dog to find empty chairs. This is done routinely at other schools I hear. IT seemed like this big rushed deal for her to show me. She showed me how to do it so I could set it up at home to teach my dog.
I hear other schools ask their students to put booties on their pups before going on escalators. Seeing Eye says they'll teach you how to safely do it without booties. I'm still parinoid of taking my girl on them.
Seeing Eye has terrible follow-up if you live outside the northeast. I'm just going to say that flat out. I live in Colorado. You might get a couple hours over a two-day period if you're lucky. IF it's not fixed, too bad. They like to wait until there's a group who need help, so you might be waiting weeks and weeks, just to get two hours of time. In the last decade, Seeing Eye fired all of their field reps across the country, so there's that explanation.
If you're a first-time dog owner with little common sense when it comes to reading dogs, you're going to have a rough time. There's just not time to give you the attention you need in a class of four. The winter, or during the semester might be a better time to go with less people attending. The summer is busy.
I think a lot of good advice has been given here and on previous boards about guide dog choice. A lot depends on your own experience with dogs, guides in particular, training methods, etc.
I hope we have been somewhat helpful!
Thank you very much everyone. I have a lot to consider.
OP, I wish you luck. This will be an adventure.
The thread is about school choice, but my tip is to put aside some savings, if you can, every month, to be used for vet expenses. I think they should discuss this in training. It's something you may not think of, until you have a problem! Owning a dog can be costly..wonderful, but costly.
Sword of Sapphire, thank you for post 7; it was extremely helpful!
I've had two excellent dogs from Guiding Eyes, and will be applying again, soon. I have no reservations about returning to GEB, but was curious about Guide Dogs in CA, as it's closer to home. The info in this thread has answered my questions! GEB, it is. *smile*
One of the major consideration for me is the matching process. I heard storries that some schools might take you on, and match you during the first day of training itself. That for me is a no-no. For me, i prefer a well thought of, well plan, and well care matching process, with a system. A successful match for a long term takes time to make sure that the dog and the handeler are suitable to each other.
I'm also not sure about the important of age. I seen some dogs that are around 2 or 3 or even 4 years old, still acting like a 6 months old puppy. And i have had a guide before, he is barely 21 months, and he is as wise as a 8 year old dog. In fact, he is so wise and calm and mature, that he does not suit my fast pace lifestyle needs. When me and my first dog graduated, she was only 20 months, and she retired at the age of 7 because of some health issue that have nothing to do with her work ethics. However, what it is important for me is the length of training. I don't think anything less than 3 months of training is enough for a puppy to develop as a guide. But then, some instructor also told me that, anything beyond 6 months training, is something that need to be aware too.
Hi,
I'm a GDB grad from 2011, and just thought I would share...
I went to one of the first 2 week classes for new handlers at the Oregon campus. I was
afraid 2 weeks would not be enough, but in my experience, it really was. I enjoyed not
having too much down time, a fast paced training environment, and the positive reward
and clicker training really does make a huge difference in the speed at which the dogs can
learn and the depth of the bond that forms between handler and dog. I have had a few
problems since, not anything to do with her training however, but GDB has always been
responsive to me with a same day phone call back from a qualified instructor, and I even
had my rep out to see me twice. As for the young dogs, I do wish they were a little more
seasoned before graduation, but my girl was very well trained and ready when we
graduated, my problems later had to do with my lifestyle and handling choices. So I would
highly recommend them as well, especially if you are in the western areas of the continent
where a rep can easily reach you by vehicle.
One thing I will say is that to make a two week class work, you should be highly
motivated, eager to learn on your own, a self starter, and not afraid to ask questions or
research things on your own. You will get great access to training during that period, but
you should have already read all their material ahead of time and use the two weeks to
work on the practical side of guiding instead of learning what you need to do to care for
the dog or how to address guide errors, etc. You should already know the techniques
ahead of time to apply them to your training right away. If you do not learn well on your
own, perhaps a longer training elsewhere is better for you.
Victor
Victor,
I like how you put this. IMHO, I had a lot of questions and confidence issues at first, so our 4 weeks of half-day in-home training suited my needs at the time.
If something happens to my guide (God forbid!), your experiences (and those of friends) have let me want to consider GDB, esp since I have taken on the challenges of clicker training myself...
Crazy Musician, can you recommend a site or book about clicker training? I bought a book, once, but found it relied too heavily on pictures!
The best site for learning about clicker training is
clickertraining.com
The best books on clicker training are
Don't Shoot the Dog
Getting Started with Clicker Training for Dogs
Both books are by Karen Pryor, leader of the introduction of clicker training into dog training. Both are on Bookshare.
Age mattered to me because I requested a specific breed. But no matter the breed, many large breed dogs reach adulthood between the ages of 2 and 3. That is a fact, regardless of what many service dog schools are doing. So yes, you could still get a 2-year-old that is very puppyish, but I still say, the later the better. There are guide dog schools in Europe that only put out dogs between the ages of 2 and 3. They know what they're doing.
An adolescent dog might have solid temperament, but it is the reliability of judgment and understanding that I also want in a working guide dog. I trained dogs for just over a year, working with various breeds, ages, and temperaments, and I now understand more than ever the importance of the choice I made. All adolescent dogs are not the same; some dogs have a very smooth adolescence, but many of them act like teenagers. They are more self-centered and less eager to please. They don't generalize behaviors very well. They are forgetful, or their memory of trained behavior can be fleeting. Seriously, there are days when training is smooth-sailing and they understand everything perfectly, but there are too many days where you'll give them commands or cues, and they act like they sincerely have no idea what you're asking them to do. It's as though there is a regress in their training. Also, adolescents can be easily distracted or have problems focusing or maintaining behaviors, like a down-stay, for long periods of time. These animals are in their teenage testing stage, where in the wild,, it would be time to decide whether this dog is staying with the pack, or should break from their pack and make one of their own. Also, their brains are still growing, not to mention their bodies.
I don't like the idea of putting out adolescent dogs because the earlier a dog is passed through formal guide training, the earlier that dog is castrated. The dogs are typically spayed or neutered before formal guide training. I am not in favor of castration in the first place, and I am especially opposed to early castration. Body parts and hormones are not there for fun, they're there for a multitude of biological and psychological reasons. One of those reasons is proper development of the brain and physique. The earlier the sex organs and their associated hormones are removed, the more at risk a dog is for a variety of conditions, especially improper mental and physical development. So these adolescent dogs being given out are being done a great disservice.
First time handlers receiving adolescent dogs are also being done a disservice. If you are not ready to deal with an adolescent dog, it will make solidifying that new relationship more stressful. You have to know to be patient, to provide lots of praise and encouragement, to keep them occupied, to be extremely consistent, and to know when it's time to give your dog or yourself a break. This should be the case with any new partnership, but especially with immature dogs, who will not only be testing you, but also acting incredibly puppyish, clueless, and seemingly idiotic at times. I am pretty sure schools giving out adolescent dogs are not hammering this home for students receiving these dogs.
Amen, Meow. People's oppinions may be helpful, but do your own research and make your own conclusions. I know nothing about pilot dogs, but everyone seems to dislike them for some reason. I've not seen many pilot dogs either. I have seen wonderful teams from Leader Dog, The Seeing Eye, Guide Dogs for the Blind and the Guide Dog foundation. I've not really seen teams from other schools.
This is great information. I am also wondering if you know what kind of dogs
are the best to get. I am very attracted to German Shepherds and I am
wondering if labs are the best bread to get.
If you're wanting a Shephard, GDB is not the place to go. From what I understand, they've phased out use of that breed. I've only had Labs and they've been great.
If you want a German shepherd learn about that breed. What are their most notable qualities? What is the breed known for? Why are you interested in German shepherds over other breeds?
Labs are the most popular breed in guide dog schools because they are less sensitive than other breeds. Labs are less sensitive to environmental changes, though the opposite is coming true. And labs are not as sensitive to the kennel environment. Also, labs are notorious for being incredibly stubborn, which is necessary for a good guide dog, whereas other breeds are not as stubborn and are more compliant/obedient.
I'm guessing you value ownership highly, so you applied to the 2 programs most notorious for granting ownership upon graduation. Also, they are larger schools, so there is less of a wait time if you want a particular breed. Seeing Eye and Pilot both put out German shepherds, though I would not go to either school for a German shepherd. Seeing Eye and Pilot tend to put out adolescent dogs, and maybe that's fine for lab lovers, considering labs retain many puppyish qualities into adulthood. But if you're going for a golden retriever or German shepherd, it is incredibly important to work them at an appropriate age. Elsewise, you will have a major clown, troublemaker, and sporadically-behaved dog on your hands.
Other schools that grant ownership upon completion of training are Guide Dog Foundation in New York, Guide Dogs of America in California, and Freedom Guide Dogs, also in New York. I've done some research for you on these three schools, and put the website above the research for you to find out more.
Guide Dogs of America
guidedogsofamerica.org
They put out German shepherds, labs, and goldens. Dogs do not go in for guide dog training until they are 22-26 months of age, and then are trained in formal guide work for an additional 4-6 months. Again, they grant ownership upon completion of training.
Guide Dog Foundation
Guidedog.org
One webpage says they put out shepherds, and another doesn't include that breed in the ones they train, so you should call and ask to make sure if you believe this is the breed for you. I couldn't find information on the length of time the dogs are in formal guide training. Again, call and ask.
Freedom Guide Dogs
freedomguidedogs.org
They train the usuals and some unique breeds, but no German shepherds. And again, they grant ownership upon graduation. But they only give dogs to residents in the east, and they warn that you could wait up to 18 months for a guide dog. Boo!
If I wanted a German shepherd, and I lived within the districts of the schools that specialize in German shepherd guides, I would attend one of those programs. To my knowledge, those programs are Fidelco in Conneticut, Eye Dog Foundation in Arizona, and Independence Guide Dogs in Washington. I'm not sure if any of them offer ownership upon graduation, but they know what they're doing training those dogs.
I will never advise anyone against being picky. I myself put in an order for a golden retriever. However, I requested that breed because through my experiences, I feel that golden retrievers have chosen me. The first guide dog in training I ever saw was a 3-month-old golden retriever when I was 8. I practically grew up with Leader Dogs in my backyard, and I have taken walks with their dogs 2 different times, and both dogs were golden retrievers. In addition, whenever I visited friends who had golden retrievers, I was instantly won over by the golden's gentle nature, down-to-earth personality, and level of obedience.
I have come to understand the nature of golden retrievers, and have realized how my nature aligns with that of a golden. Like a golden retriever, I am very sensitive, extremely loyal, gentle-natured, low to moderately energetic, and I take my work seriously.
I will always choose golden retrievers over other breeds because of their energy level, work ethic, easy handling, and because I need a dog who can weather harsh winters without additional covering. I feel that other breeds are typically higher energy than golden retrievers, such as German shepherds and labs, and tend to get into trouble with a lot of down time. Also, some breeds have higher levels of distractibility compared to goldens. I do not want to work a labrador or a lab/golden cross simply because they are notorious for scavenging and excessive sniffing. Sometimes, nothing matters more to them than food. No, I don't want that dog. Also, goldens are typically easy to handle. There is no need for harsh leash corrections, not that there is with any dog, and they respond very well to voice commands. Also, goldens take you seriously. I have seen too many labs who think everything is a game. It's time to leave, so they pick up a toy. You pick up their harness, and they run away from you. You call them, and they don't come.
I understand that some of this has to do with consistency and training maintenance and each individual's handling skills, but some breeds are more prone to certain undesirable behaviors or unsuitable qualities for me personally.
80 to 90% of the dog guide in the world are populated by either Labs, or Lab cross Goldy. Generally, Labs or Labs cross are categorise as an easy out going dogs that is easy to train, and easy to control, and like the poster above said, it is also in some way, are more adaptable to environment than other breeds. Not to say that, they got a cute looking face for public relations. They also generally have least health problems, compare to say breed like German shepherd. Labs life spend usually go for average of 13 to 15 years old, which is quite a good life spend for the dog that size. I know most sheperd guide retired around the age of 7 or 8, compare to say, 10 for a lab. Of course, they are some good quality of the shepherds too, but, not every handler can handle a German shepherd well, compare to labs which make the matching process harder for sheperd than an average lab.
Out of some 16 schools in the states, i think i know of one school that is specialise in training sheperd dog. Can't remember either pilot dog or the leader dog though.
Fedelco is the only school that does only shepherds. There use is declining in all other schools. At leader shepherds are down to about 5 percent, goldens at 15% and labs at 85%. Labs are the top guide dogs in America and in the world.
I just want to say that I went to Leaderdog in the summer of 2013 and I had a great experience there. But every person will have different experiences with different dogs, instructors, instruction teams, all kinds of stuff. Just go with whatever feels right for you.
I guess this is my opinion because I graduated from there, but guiding eyes was a really good school for me. I just got my first dog, and while she is young, she turned two about a month after I got her, she is the most even tempered dog I have ever seen, and I have been around a lot of guide dogs from many different schools. I tried seeing eye, but they turned me down, claiming I had too much vision. so if you have functional sight, I would watch that one. pilot dogs has a bad reputation for the dogs they match, with them not being trained long enough and with them not screening the applicants based on mobility and IL skills. Leader dogs also has a reputation, but they are getting better. I believe guide dogs for the blind, seeing eye, guiding eyes, and guide dog foundation are some of the top schools
Raven, lol. That post you mentioned about labs playing games reminded me of Hardy! Never would come; dog didn't work out. But, now, I'm attending the Guide Dog Foundation, they have given me a great match, a female yellow lab, and she's fast, relaxed, and responds well to everything I have thrown at her. By the way, while GDF does grant ownership upon graduation, they do not train Shepherds anymore.
Congratulations, Hardyboy! Glad it's working out better, with this one. Yellows are gorgeous! *smile*
I'm going to GEB in a couple of months. Can't wait to meet my new puppy!